Spiritual Christian forums (now a debate on predestination)christianforums.itopsites.com/ Come join, but just spiritual Christian forums.
Edited by: Tron4JC at: 7/25/05 8:34 pm
You can come in and call us predestinarians a bunch of heretics (but not decide who is saved or not saved- you are not God and you do not know a person's faith or lack thereof in regards to the cross of Christ). But better give a good reason or good reasons, like Scriptures. Or historical statements. And actually do this one thing which is called actually interacting with others. Like interacting with what others say their views are, not what you want them to believe, in order to attack them. If you can't do that, then don't bother posting.
By the way, I just happened to be Lutheran. I do hold to the elect are chosen by God for salvation. I don't hold to any of you ascribed to predestinarians. And as a former Calvinist (who now rejects the last three points of Calvinism), I know for a fact that Calvinists do not hold to the views you falsely accuse them of holding to.
Consider this a warning.
From now, if you are going to make accusations about what Calvinists believe, provide sources from their own writings. And be ready to be scrutinized.
And more...call my views heretical all you like. But the power to decide another's salvation does not belong to you, over differences in doctrines on predestination.
Btw, your problem is with the entire Protestant Reformation. You might as well just say the foundation of the entire Reformation is not Christian, since the view of power of God's choice to save the elect provided the firm foundation for the solas against Roman Catholicism.
Re: Spiritual Christian forums
And oh yes, refrain from accusing us of worshipping false gods.
Even EOs and RCCs, who consider us Prots, schismatics, are more than happy as considering us as having the same triune God. I suggest you do the same if you want to stay here and post.
Re: Spiritual Christian forums
Protestant reformation if meant the pride of believing one is premade for salvation certainly is no reformation, but more confusion. How sly to attach this word to the pride of believing you were pre-made for salvation, but the fact remain God never saves this way.
You shouldn't assume everyone is saved. If someone says thy are are a calvinist, meaning, they think they are like a machine or robot premade for salvation this is certainly no indication to think they are born again.
Re: Spiritual Christian forums
1) Calvinists do not believe we are robots.
2) Calvinists do believe we are saved by faith alone in Christ alone.
3) One can affirm some points of Calvinism and not others. I am Lutheran, and we agree with first two points, but reject last three, for example. We go by what Scriptures say on each point, not assume if one rejects one point, one must reject all five.
4) You contradict yourself when you say if we reject one point of Calvinism, we must reject all five points, when you say that you hold to one cannot walk away from salvatioon. Calvinists believe that once one have saving faith, one cannot walk away from salvation, since salvation is eternal to them!
5) Calvinists do not hold to only they themselves are "premade for salvation." And as pointed out, Calvinists are not the only ones who hold to predestination. So do Lutherans.
They, whom God has accepted in His Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.
Quote:4) You contradict yourself when you say if we reject one point of Calvinism, we must reject all five points, when you say that you hold to one cannot walk away from salvatioon. Calvinists believe that once one have saving faith, one cannot walk away from salvation, since salvation is eternal to them!
Well said Tron. The belief of Once saved, always saved is a very strong calvinist belief and one that many of us believe in such as myself. Following the poster's logic, this belief should be aborted, and I disagree with that.
Re: Spiritual Christian forums
1) Calvinists believe in total depravity from which the only way one can be saved is if God pre-made that person to choose or come out of total depravity, requiring them to be like robots and killing the image of God that has a sovereign will. This is lording or priding oneself over others they think are pre-made for hell.
2) Calvinists do NOT believe they are saved by faith alone in Christ alone since the believe the error in #1 above.
3) You can not accept parts of calvinism and parts of something else. They are incompatible. And this is proveable. If you agree to total depravity you have to agree with all the other 4 points. you can't reject the last 3. Not realizing this is not Biblical. A zombie is a zombie is a zombie.
4) There is a difference between OSAS under arminian and OSAS under calvinism. Under calvinism wone is premade for salvation and saved forever; whereas, OSAS under arminian that person is saved because by God's foreknowledge He could see the choice we would make in His image and did not need to premake us to come out of total depravity. There is no such thing as total depravity. We were fallen, not totally deprave. There is a difference. Your misunderstanding.
5) Predestination is held by arminians. Again, predestination is not the problem, but the understanding of what it is. Predestination means God foreknowingly saves, because of His foreknowledge, not because He premakes people for salvation. That is evil. In fact, Lutherans, presbyterians and calvinists don't actually believe in predestination, but rather, premaking like zombies. There are lots who hold these lies, but hell is large and the unsaved tares in the kingdom of heaven are vast also.
Re: Spiritual Christian forums
Ast: 2) Calvinists do NOT believe they are saved by faith alone in Christ alone since the believe the error in #1 above.
Me: Your problem with reality and history. Not me.
I. Those whom God effectually calls, He also freely justifies;[1] not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous; not for any thing wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone; nor by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but by imputing the obedience and satisfaction of Christ unto them,[2] they receiving and resting on Him and His righteousness by faith; which faith they have not of themselves, it is the gift of God.[3]
II. Faith, thus receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification:[4] yet is it not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but works by love.[5]
Re: Spiritual Christian forums
Ast: Calvinists believe in total depravity from which the only way one can be saved is if God pre-made that person to choose or come out of total depravity, requiring them to be like robots and killing the image of God that has a sovereign will. This is lording or priding oneself over others they think are pre-made for hell.
Me: Calvinists do not believe men are robots and have no will of their own. They believe the will of man is corrupted by sin to that man only wants to be against God unless given the desire to turn from their sins.
As to your argumentation here with unconditional election, your argumentation is with Lutherans also.
And Calvinists do not claim to know who are nonelect, even those still in disbelief, since God is capable of turning them to faith.
So your claim Calvinists believe they can lord over others on grounds of knowing who are elect and who are not elect is outright false.
Re: Spiritual Christian forums
Ast: There is a difference between OSAS under arminian and OSAS under calvinism. Under calvinism wone is premade for salvation and saved forever; whereas, OSAS under arminian that person is saved because by God's foreknowledge He could see the choice we would make in His image and did not need to premake us to come out of total depravity. There is no such thing as total depravity. We were fallen, not totally deprave. There is a difference. Your misunderstanding.
Me: You are dealing here with conversion, NOT OSAS. On OSAS, as documented, you and Calvinists believe the same in regards to those who believe won't fall away.
Not my misunderstanding at all. You are switching the issue back to conversion, in regards to total depravity, instead of dealing with OSAS, to avoid the obvious fact out of your rabid hate for Calvinism, to point you can't even try to accurately present its view.
Re: Spiritual Christian forums
Ast: Predestination is held by arminians. Again, predestination is not the problem, but the understanding of what it is. Predestination means God foreknowingly saves, because of His foreknowledge, not because He premakes people for salvation. That is evil. In fact, Lutherans, presbyterians and calvinists don't actually believe in predestination, but rather, premaking like zombies. There are lots who hold these lies, but hell is large and the unsaved tares in the kingdom of heaven are vast also.
Me: Well, we shall see. But no one authorized you to be able to speak for who are saved and who are not. You don't "lord" over us there. Funny, you falsely accuse Calvinists as being lost on grounds of the false accusation they believe they can lord over others as to who is elect and who is not.
Yet, here you are precisely doing the same thing you accused others of!
Re: Spiritual Christian forums
History bears out the sins of calvinism. This is where your problem lies in not letting go of these sins. Your problem does not exist with me but with a teaching of men usually unregenerated trying worship God in their minds without affecting change in their spirit through new birth. Satan wins as long as their is not a quickened spirit in the man.
I. The gift of God of being made in God's image is the means (and first faith and grace) by which one can come to the cross to receive God's grace of salvation that He promises. None are saved by being pre-made for salvation. God longs to see this choice made for Him so He can give His life. Ergo, faith is man's contribution given to all men to have the right by being made in His image, except not all men receive the cross. That is their choice. Not receiving also includes thinking one is pre-made for salvation, since this is not receiving.
II. Christ is the Savior and none need to be saved by being pre-made for salvation out of total depravity, since total depravity is not of God and a false teaching. That is evil. God longs to walk with those who choose His life for these are the ones He wants to be with, not the calvinists in their headiness. A babe could never be saved under such pride of believing they were premade for salvation.
Man fallen of himself does not choose the cross but of the fact that He is made in God's image to have the right to come to the cross, otherwise man would not be made in God's image. God gave grace in creating man in His image.
Lutherans do not believe in unconditional election. Luther believed in resistible grace that is contrary to unconditional election. Read that article, that says this is what Luther believed and proved it.
God does not turn anyone to faith, for the choice is left to the person. God will not coerce. God merely gives the ability to come to the cross, so God turns no one. He wants to see the man make the choice, and none choose by choice as being premade for salvation. This is a heresy of calvinism, a false revival, reformation typified by sardis.
The lording of calvinists is that they think they were saved by being premade that way, while some other contigent is not premade for salvation, but made for hell. This is the evil of calvinism. Such are the tares in the kingdom of heaven who look outwardly like believers but believe not according to God's need. Calvinists are the swine. Do not cast pearls before them.
The conversion of the believer (which agrees with osas arminian salvation) occurs differently than for a calvinist, rendering the calvinist not born again. Both claim osas, but only one has a conversion that effectively leads to true osas. Otherwise God would have two different ways of deriving osas. And that is universalism.
I do not hate calvinism, I just know its reviling pride of thinking that in its adherents that they are premade for salvation. Think of Hitler's arian nation whom think they were premade that way. Crazy stuff. Don't you love God to see God longs to see the choice made in His image, and He is no respecter of persons so He will never premake anyone. Total depravity is the lie of all lies. A legalism!
I merely give you the truth of salvation, and it is evil if God were to premake people for salvation. If you were truly saved you truly could never believe as a calvinist you were premade for salvation. I do not know if you are unsaved, I only know what you teach does not flow from Biblical salvation so in all probability you were never born again; albeit, some with a little more knowledge would be delivered from this cloud of confusion, yet saved already.
Luther never tried to resolve total depravity and resistible grace, even though he held to both of them. How illogical. I can easily in a heartbeat resolve his confusion. We are fallen, but not totally deprave. This means that though we are fallen we are still made in God's image, for God's image is never totally deprave, nor are we since we are made in God's image. We are never not made in God's image. Despite our fallen, we being made in God's image have a right to come to the cross to receive the blessing of redemption.
Praise the Lord! If you are in Christ shed yourself of this vile teaching of calvinism that makes a mockery of the church. Know that if you are saved it is because of John 3.16,18 by grace alone, but the antecedent was your coming to the cross, and what preceded that, was your being made in God's image to have a right to the cross, and what preceded that was God made a choice to create.
If you are a Christian you will walk away from the heresy of calvinism, once and for all. If you are not a Christian it would make sense you could not let go of calvinism, still under a replicatory false salvation and Satan's copying himself as a facsimile unto God's plan to keep you unregenerated forever.
Edited by: ast tst at: 7/25/05 2:34 pm
Sect. 9. - THIS, therefore, is also essentially necessary and wholesome for Christians to know: That God foreknows nothing by contingency, but that He foresees, purposes, and does all things according to His immutable, eternal, and infallible will. By this thunderbolt, "Free-will" is thrown prostrate, and utterly dashed to pieces. Those, therefore, who would assert "Free-will," must either deny this thunderbolt, or pretend not to see it, or push it from them. But, however, before I establish this point by any arguments of my own, and by the authority of Scripture, I will first set it forth in your words.
Re: Spiritual Christian forums
Ast: Lutherans do not believe in unconditional election. Luther believed in resistible grace that is contrary to unconditional election. Read that article, that says this is what Luther believed and proved it.
Me: The article shows Luther believed unconditional election, total depravity, and resistable grace. You simply either did not read it fully or you are being rather selective about parts you want to accept from that article.
This is what the article says as you try to pass of as saying Luther rejected unconditional election, just because he affirmed resistable grace (and I have read the article countless of times and cited it countless of times before in this board and other boards, so you are so full of it):
In dealing with the issue of election or predestination, Luther understood the impasse at which one arrives by retaining the total depravity of man, universal grace, and God’s election of individuals, but he never tried to harmonize the teachings. He feared that he would be forced to make concessions that would violate biblical truth.
Luther believed that divine election was the cause of our salvation. The doctrine was for the comfort of the believer. He wrote: "The human doctrine of free will and of our spiritual powers is futile. The matter (salvation) does not depend on our will but on God’s will and election."* Since salvation is totally of God’s doing, the doctrine of election comforts those who believe. We can say, "I belong to God! I have been chosen by God. I am one of his sheep!"
While accepting divine election, Luther refused to embrace the logical conclusions that led to an atonement limited to the elect and irresistible grace. He retained universal grace and man’s power to resist and reject the Gospel. For Luther, it was a mystery. Concerning investigating the doctrine he wrote: "we are not allowed to investigate, and even though you were to investigate much, yet you would never find out."
Luther believed that Christians are eternally secure, but in Christ. After admonishing his readers to continue to look to the cross of Christ, he wrote:
For if you concern yourself with this alone and believe that it has happened for your sake, you will certainly be preserved in this faith.... Look for yourself in Christ alone. . . . Then you will find yourself eternally in him.
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